ELLIOTT: Hi. This is Elliott (ph), and I am at UNC Chapel Hill, where I’m completing my second day of classes for the spring semester of my sophomore year. I just left my podcasting class, and I’m preparing for my political science class later today. This podcast was recorded at…
TAMARA KEITH, HOST:
12:39 p.m. on Wednesday, January 15.
ELLIOTT: Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but hopefully I will be in the process of becoming a skilled podcaster, just like the staff at NPR. Enjoy the show.
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CLAUDIA GRISALES, BYLINE: Of course.
KEITH: I hope you listen to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST on that walk between your classes.
GRISALES: Yes.
KEITH: Just a nice transition there. Hey there. It’s the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. I’m Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
GRISALES: I’m Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress.
RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: And I’m Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.
KEITH: Confirmation hearings for President-elect Trump’s cabinet nominees continue today on Capitol Hill. We’re going to focus on two of them in particular – Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, who’s been picked to be secretary of state, and former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi, who is Trump’s pick to be the nation’s attorney general. Ryan, we’re going to start with Bondi. What is her background?
LUCAS: Well, unless you are from Florida, you probably don’t know who Bondi is. She was a longtime prosecutor there and then was the state’s attorney general for eight years, from 2011 until 2019. Her kind of coming-out party on the national stage, I would say, would be when she served as a personal attorney to then-President Trump during his first impeachment trial. And after that, she went into lobbying, private practice, stuff like that.
KEITH: Now, she was not Trump’s first pick. That was Matt Gaetz. We’ve talked about him a lot. She was sort of the safety pick.
GRISALES: Right. We have talked a lot about Gaetz, and people were relieved when Gaetz was pushed out of the process. When that happened and Bondi was named, there was a sigh of relief through the Capitol from Democrats, Republicans talking to me on background, telling me how worried they were that Gaetz could get in this position. So ironically, it’s been a big boost to her nomination.
LUCAS: It is clear from the top that Republicans are very excited about this nomination. They have called her well-qualified. There’s been no shortage of compliments from Republicans. Democrats have even acknowledged that she does have extensive experience as a prosecutor and that that bodes well for her. But at the same point in time, they certainly have questions about some of her past and certainly her relationship with Donald Trump and whether she can remain independent as attorney general.
KEITH: Yeah, that is a big question, and we’ll get to that a bit more. But I do want to know what her pitch was as to why she should be the one with the job.
LUCAS: Well, she’s leaned heavily into her experience as – for almost two decades as a state prosecutor in Florida, where she did a lot of violent crime. She talked about cases that she brought that related to domestic violence, her work as state attorney general, trying to kind of stamp out the opioid crisis in that state, to fight drug cartels. So she has a lengthy history in which she can point to and say that she has done a big job. It’s the third-largest state. It is a really big job to run an office that large. And so she’s really been leaning on that experience to say why she is well-qualified to hold this really, really important, big job.
KEITH: And it is a big job because it’s about keeping Americans safe. It is also a big job because President-elect Trump has a certain interest in the Justice Department – a longstanding…
LUCAS: He’s had a rocky relationship with the Justice Department, I think you could say.
KEITH: Yeah, and with his own attorneys general.
LUCAS: Absolutely. Absolutely. His first attorney general, of course, in his first term, was Jeff Sessions. Sessions did not last those first four years. He was pushed out about halfway through. His second attorney general, of course, was Bill Barr, who was a Republican establishment, very prominent attorney. And he ultimately left after clashing with Trump when Trump was pushing for investigations into alleged election fraud, and Barr came back and said, we looked at it and, Mr. President, there isn’t any indication. There isn’t any evidence of notable fraud. And that was a real point of tension between the two. And ultimately, Barr left before that administration came to a close.
KEITH: Ryan, I do want to ask you about independence because that was an issue with Trump’s previous attorneys general. He didn’t want them to be independent and was frustrated when they pushed back. Bondi was asked a lot about that.
LUCAS: She was asked over and over by Democrats. It’s really one of the points that they are trying to drill down on and get her to commit. And one thing that I would say that struck me in this hearing – Bondi was kind of walking the line between the things that people expect an attorney general nominee to say. She said that the Justice Department must act independently – that politics will play no part. And, of course, she said that, you know, she will defend her oath to support and defend the Constitution.
But at the same point in time, she very delicately danced around questions on topics that President Trump has expressed strong feelings about. So for example, she was asked quite directly whether Joe Biden won the 2020 election. So here’s an exchange that she had with the top Democrat on the panel, Dick Durbin.
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DICK DURBIN: Are you prepared to say today, under oath, without reservation, that Donald Trump lost the presidential contest to Joe Biden in 2020?
PAM BONDI: Ranking Member Durbin, President Biden is the president of the United States. He was duly sworn in, and he is the president of the United States. There was a peaceful transition of power. President Trump left office and was overwhelmingly elected in 2024.
DURBIN: Do you have any doubts that Joe Biden had the majority of votes – electoral votes – necessary to be elected president in 2020?
BONDI: You know, Senator, all I can tell you as a prosecutor is from my first-hand experience, and I accept the results. I accept, of course, that Joe Biden is president of the United States. But what I can tell you is what I saw firsthand when I went to Pennsylvania as an advocate for the campaign. I was an advocate for the campaign. And I was on the ground in Pennsylvania, and I saw many things there. But do I accept the results? Of course, I do. Do I agree with what happened? And I saw so much. You know, no one from either side of the aisle should want there to be any issues with election integrity in our country. We should all want our elections to be free and fair and the rules and the laws to be followed.
DURBIN: I think that question deserved a yes or no, and I think the length of your answer is an indication that you weren’t prepared to answer yes.
LUCAS: And there were other instances where she was asked similar versions of that question, and the answers were similarly long. We’ve seen this sort of dance that she’s done on a number of delicate questions that I think is – you know, she knows that President-elect Trump is likely watching and listening, and there are things that, of course, he likely would not like her to say.
GRISALES: I think that’s a good way to put it, Ryan, in terms of this dance. She will have a very full plate when it comes to navigating Trump’s demands and the expectations of the Justice Department in terms of running this massive agency. And so there’s going to be a lot for her to navigate, and it seems that Republicans are hopeful that she’ll be able to pull it off.
LUCAS: One of the things that was a big topic in this hearing is the question of the weaponization or politicization of the Justice Department. It’s an allegation that Republicans have made against the Justice Department under Merrick Garland. They say that President Trump was unfairly targeted. We, of course, saw two special counsel prosecutions come out of the Justice Department against President Trump over the past four years.
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BONDI: They targeted Donald Trump. They went after him. Actually, starting back in 2016, they targeted his campaign. They have launched countless investigations against him.
LUCAS: Counter, to that, the Justice Department would say, was that the Justice Department also prosecuted President Biden’s son, also prosecuted prominent Democratic lawmakers. But one of the things that Bondi talked about again and again – and she said it in her opening statement, and she said it also in response to questions – is that she believes that there has been weaponization of the Justice Department, and she pledged quite firmly that that would end if she were confirmed as AG.
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BONDI: If I am attorney general, I will not politicize that office. I will not target people simply because of their political affiliation.
KEITH: And Claudia, will she be confirmed?
GRISALES: I think she’s on a good path, especially for Republicans, to confirm her. I think more of the question now is if any Democrats are willing to help.
KEITH: All right. Let’s take a break, and when we come back – how Marco Rubio fared.
And we’re back. And Claudia, you were monitoring Marco Rubio’s hearing, so let’s talk about that. He’s up for secretary of state. Tell us about his background.
GRISALES: Rubio comes from very humble beginnings, Cuban immigrant parents, and that’s something I heard as a theme over and over. I also heard about his determination, his competitiveness. He had dreams of being an NFL player. It didn’t happen. But that drive – he took it into his political career. He became a city commissioner more than 25 years ago, and that was followed by a seat in the Florida House, where he became speaker. And in 2010, he was elected to the U.S. Senate.
But we all know 2016. People got to know another side of Rubio. He was called Little Marco by President-elect Donald Trump. But what people didn’t see behind the scenes – what I was told – is that he was shaking hands. He was making friends with Trump, essentially, making this unlikely ally to the point where he was considered to be in the running to be his vice president and now secretary of state, and he really does look to have one of the easier nomination paths of all of these Trump nominees so far.
KEITH: Yeah. I mean, he went from being almost embarrassed by Trump…
GRISALES: Right?
KEITH: …In that primary and following to working his way back in and ultimately being picked as Trump’s nominee for secretary of state. So what was his pitch?
GRISALES: Well, he made a lot of jokes during the hearing. He said it was surreal to be on that side of the room and said, everyone looks so distinguished. We had a few protesters in English and Spanish. And he says, look, I get bilingual protesters. He was bragging about that. But he would get quite serious when he was talking about his pitch to be the next secretary of state. Of course, this would be historic. We have not had a Latino in that role – someone who would focus on the Western Hemisphere in a way that has not been done before. And he also took aim at dictatorships, at regimes such as China, such as Iran. And he also raised Venezuela. That’s a country he faced a death threat from in 2017 for speaking out against that regime in that time.
And so he said he would carefully thread the needle, kind of what Ryan heard a little bit of in his hearing with Bondi, in terms of navigating Trump’s demands, executing his directives, while, at the same time, trying to hold loyal and strong to his past statements in terms of taking aim at Putin, taking aim at Russia, saying that war needs to end, suppotrting Ukraine and also saying the hostages need to be released after this ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. And so a lot of the same themes we’ve heard from Rubio before – he was very passionate about it, and Republicans were clearly enthused about his nomination. And Democrats, while they challenged him at many moments, they – clearly, some of them are ready to vote for him.
LUCAS: Claudia, sitting senators – I say this as someone who’s spent time on the Hill – sitting senators often do get deference from their former colleagues when they have their own confirmation hearings to go into an administration. Did you see that here at all?
GRISALES: Yeah. There was a bit of a chuminess, if you will. I could see that especially with chairman Jim Risch as he opened the hearing.
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JIM RISCH: Senator Rubio, this is a long laundry list of crisises (ph). You’ve earned yourself one of the hardest jobs in America. But after serving with you for so many years, I’m confident you are the right person we need to take on these threats.
GRISALES: And he made jokes about Rubio and past conversations where Rubio once called Risch a doofus because he didn’t know whether he could take electronics into a secured room for an intelligence meeting. And so…
KEITH: The answer is no.
GRISALES: The answer is no.
KEITH: You cannot take electronics into a secure…
GRISALES: He did answer that question, by the way.
LUCAS: It’s a hard no.
GRISALES: He did. So there were a lot of light moments there. It was a reminder that, in some cases, these confirmation hearings are just a formality. All the real discussions have all happened behind closed doors, and it’s clear they’re just racing to the 20th. They hope they can put Rubio up as one of the first nominees to be confirmed after Trump is sworn in.
KEITH: So thinking about Rubio – and correct me if I’m wrong – but he is someone who strongly supports NATO.
GRISALES: Right.
KEITH: He someone who strongly opposes Russia, wants to stand up to China. There are areas where Rubio’s at least historic positions are not exactly perfectly aligned with Trump’s views on foreign policy – his more isolationist views.
GRISALES: Yeah. And I talked to Carlos Gimenez about that in the House, and he said there will not be any daylight between Rubio and Trump. There may be some deviations in terms of their worldview, but they’re more similar than people realize. And we saw Rubio do that in terms of touching on those nuances. At the same time, Rubio was being critical of Russia and Putin, but he also made clear he will be following Trump’s lead. And I heard that from Gimenez as well, who said that Rubio will be a loyal soldier.
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MARCO RUBIO: But ultimately, under President Trump, the top priority of the United States Department of State will be the United States. The direction he has given for the conduct of our foreign policy is clear. Every dollar we spend, every program we fund, every policy we pursue must be justified by the answer to one of three questions. Does it make America safer? Does it make America stronger? Or does it make America more prosperous?
KEITH: I do want to close with this one observation. Yesterday’s confirmation hearing with Pete Hegseth was quite combative at times. He had supporters in the room cheering for him. The questioning, particularly from Democratic senators, was tense. They complained that he had refused to meet with them beforehand. But these picks today – they met with senators from both sides of the aisle. Their hearings were – I don’t know – almost throwbacks. They were respectful and calm. There were tough questions, but the tone was different.
GRISALES: Think it’s super interesting how – I look at Senate majority leader John Thune in this new role and how this schedule was planned out. Initially, Hegseth, I imagine, they didn’t think would go up the first week. But this is someone that Trump definitely took a hard line on after we were starting to hear pushback from senators such as Joni Ernst of Iowa. Now she’s backed off of that herself. It was clear Trump was ready to go to war with some of these Republicans, have them primaried, if they’re going to deny him the Hegseth nomination. On the other hand, when you look at the rest of the list for this week, a lot of these nominees will have a smoother time in terms of their confirmations.
KEITH: All right, let’s leave it there for now. I’m Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
GRISALES: I’m Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress.
LUCAS: I’m Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.
KEITH: And thank you for listening to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.
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